[Physics] Does high entropy means low symmetry

entropynon-equilibriumstatistical mechanicssymmetrythermodynamics

According to Bogolubov postulate (various texts name it differently) in Non-equilibrium thermodynamics, the number of needed parameters to describe our system is decreasing with time, and finally at infinity, once our system reaches its equilibrium state, we will need only the usual three thermodynamic parameters $T,V,N$ to define the state.

Ok, this seems to be very logical, however, how does entropy fit in there? Generally speaking we can say that entropy describes the disorder in our system, and the higher the entropy, the less order we have, and more disorder means less symmetry in the system. (Or is this statement wrong?)
And when a system has high symmetry, we need less parameters to describe it, which uncovers a contradiction than I can't understand:

A system has reached equilibrium state, when the system's entropy reaches its maximum (we are talking here about isolated systems only), but maximum entropy means maximum disorder, maximum disorder means the need for a lot of parameters to describe it due to luck of order. But that is the opposite of what the postulate above states.

So where is the mistake in this statement? (I asked my professor and he answered that defining entropy in a non-equilibrium state is, for now, an open question but I think that the answer should lie somewhere else…) (in case there is really some relation between Entropy and Symmetry, please provide some math how this is accomplished)

Best Answer

Just to add another look to the answer of Paul. As you know any thermodynamic potential has its own variables. As the function of its variables it achieves a minimum in equilibrium. Entropy is one of such potentials that can be used on the equal basis with the others. The only difference is that it achieves minimum rather than maximum. It appeared historically this way, that entropy has been defined as it is. Put minus in front of it, and it will be as all the others.

OK, its own variables are the internal energy, E, the volume, V, and the number of particles N. The first of these, the internal energy, is very inconvenient in use. One typically cannot measure this parameter independently. It is not often evident, how to calculate it into measurable parameters to compare with experiment. For this reason the entropy is rarely used.

In fact the philosophy behind is that you first define the set of variables that is adequate to the problem, and then work with the corresponding potential. The set (V, T, N) corresponds to the free energy. Use that!

Second. You write:

[...] and more disorder means less symmetry in the system. (Or is this statement wrong?)

You are definitely wrong. Below I just give you a counter-example that will clarify the situation:

a)The symmetry group of a crystalline solid is a discrete group with (i) translations over a discrete set of vectors, rotation over discrete set of angles, and reflection in a discrete set of planes. Eventually the symmetry might be even more complex, but this does not influence my example.

b) Introducing a disorder one may transform this crystal into amorphous solid. This has the symmetry group with continuous translations and rotations and the infinite set of the mirror planes. This group is continuous, the so-called, Euclidean motion group. Any symmetry group of any crystal is its subgroup. Thus, by increasing the disorder we increased the symmetry.

c) By further increasing the disorder (say, by increasing the temperature) we may bring our solid into the liquid state. Here the symmetry is still higher, since it allows all movements with a constant volume. The Euclidean motion group is the subgroup of this one.

One may also give a number of such examples within the solid state.

Though it is typical that during phase transitions a high-temperature phase has a higher symmetry, there are also opposite examples. They are too specific and I will not give them here. There are also examples for transitions between solid states with the symmetry groups that have no group-subgroup relations between one-another. In this case one cannot decide which symmetry is higher.

To summarize all this one should say that there is no solid rule about the relation between disorder and symmetry, though increasing disorder is often followed by the symmetry increase.