What would be the result of a commutative “cartesian” product of sets? And what about a cross (“vectorial”, non cartesian) product of sets

elementary-set-theorynotation

We know that the cartesian product of sets is given by $A \times B \times C = \{\langle a,b,c\rangle : a\in A,b\in B, c\in C\}$ since it is analogous to multiplying three numbers, i.e. multiplying the sizes of the sets gives the size of the resulting set.

Is it reasonable to say that the definition of the commutative "cartesian" product[1] of sets is given by $A \cdot B \cdot C = \{\{a,b,c\} : a\in A,b\in B, c\in C\}$?

What could be the definition of the cross product[2] of sets is given by $A \circ B \circ C$?

[1] or just "multiplication", not a binary operation of sets

[2] like the one done among vectors

Best Answer

For didactic reasons, I'll show you how you could salvage your definition. You had the right idea! I think it's good to get a feel for how salvaging something is done. That's what mathematicians do all day if a definition or theorem doesn't work out. After that, I'll show you how the current body of mathematics actually deals with the apparent non-commutativity of the cartesian product.

Adapting your definition

Let us first start with your "definition"

$$A \cdot B \cdot C = \{\{a,b,c\} : a\in A,b\in B, c\in C\}$$

Albeit you can define it as such, it will very much differ from the ordinary cartesian product. Consider $A = \{a\}, B = \{a, b\}, C= \{b, c\}$. Then according to your definition we have $$A \cdot B \cdot C = \{\{a, b\}, \{a, c\}, \{a, b, c\}\}.$$ Certainly, this does not represent the set of all possible choices we could make drawing from $A, B, C$ -- which would be what $A \times B \times C$ would represent. Especially, your definition only gives 2 such "choices", whereas we actually had $|A||B||C| = 1\cdot 2 \cdot 4$ choices with the usual cartesian product.

But your idea of using sets $\{\ldots\}$ instead of tuples to ensure commutativity was good! It threw away order on the elements, but also duplicates. The latter is where the definition broke down. So why not just use a mathematical "data structure" which allows duplicates, but ignores order? We can use multisets for that. They are like sets, but with them an element can occur more than one time. Let's denote them by square brackets $[\ldots]$ and use them:

$$A \cdot B \cdot C = [[a,b,c] : a\in A,b\in B, c\in C]$$

Accept for a second that I also used multisets on the outermost set. Let us recompute our example from above:

$$A \cdot B \cdot C = [[a, a, b], [a, a, c], [a, b, b], [a, b, c]]$$

Now let's test whether it's commutative:

$$B \cdot A \cdot C = [[a, a, b], [a, a, c], [b, a, b], [b, a, c]]$$

Indeed we have the same result! If you don't see it, note that we have multisets! In particular $[b, a, b] = [a, b, b]$. Everything is equal up to order.

Why did we need the outermost multiset as well? Consider $$A = \{a, c\}\\ B = \{b\}\\ C = \{a, c\}$$

With the usual cartesian product we would have the tuples $(a, b, c)$ and $(c, b, a)$ -- among others of course. With my definition above we would have $[a, b, c]$ and $[c, b, a]$, which are -- as multisets -- the same! So if we did not have the outer multiset, we would squash them to one single element. And that would again bring our cardinality of the supposed commutative cartesian product down -- the same problem as you had with your definition I described above.


What is actually used in mathematics

We usually stick to the usual cartesian product $A \times B = \{(a, b) : a \in A, b \in B\}$. To see why, consider the two notions of equality we have in many fields of mathematics:

  • $X = Y$ if they're really equal.
  • $X \cong Y$ if $X$ and $Y$ are isomorphic in some sense. If $X$, $Y$ are sets, we say that they are isomorphic iff. there is a bijection between them.

In our case, we have $A \times B \neq B \times A$, but we have the second point fulfilled! $A \times B$ is isomorphic to $B \times A$. Do you see how?

And equality of things up to isomorphisms is good enough for many fields of mathematics. In fact, people tend to say the cartesian product is commutative because the existence of an isomorphism is good enough. (For a second, I wanted to answer your question with: it's commutative, what's your question again? :-))

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