[Math] “There is no well-ordered uncountable set of real numbers”

order-theoryset-theorywell-orders

I recently learned (from Munkres) about the axiom of choice, and how it implies the well-ordering theorem.

I've looked through various posts about how to well-order the reals (e.g. this one) but the related proofs are beyond me. From what I gather, the gist of it is that well-ordering for the reals is "possible" even though it is "unknowable."

Then I came across this question:

Q [From a recent Mathematics GRE] Is there a well-ordered uncountable set of real numbers?

A No

With subsequent proof.

Does he mean there is no (non-arbitrary maybe?) definition for the set of well-ordered real numbers — that yes, a well-ordered uncountable set of real numbers exists, but "we can't get there" — or is something else going on? Does the well-ordered theorem not apply to all sets?

Best Answer

You have to distinguish between two things:

  1. A set can be well-ordered.
  2. A set with a natural linear ordering is well-ordered with that natural ordering.

The axiom of choice implies that every set can be well-ordered. But of course not every set which has a natural linear order is well-ordered. You don't need to venture to the real numbers. Both $\Bbb Z$ and $\Bbb Q$ have a natural linear order which is most definitely not well-ordered.

The point is that given a set of real numbers, if it is well-ordered in the usual ordering of the real numbers, then it is countable. We can prove this by choosing a canonical rational point from each interval between a point and its successor. This choice of rational numbers is not using the axiom of choice, since we can always choose a canonical rational number from an interval (e.g., represent each rational as $\frac pq$ where $p,q\in\Bbb Z$, $p>0$ and $\gcd(p,q)=1$; then consider the rational with the smallest $p$ possible in the interval, and find the one with the denominator closest to $0$ (the positive if both options exist) that match this numerator).

And the main confusion people have with the well-ordering theorem, is that if $X$ is a set which has a natural linear ordering, then there is absolutely no reason for any well-ordering to agree with the natural linear ordering. Much like how we can define well-orderings of $\Bbb N$ which disagree with the usual ordering, or how we can define a well-ordering of the rational numbers which certainly disagrees with their natural order.

(What is true, as you mention, is that we cannot specifically define a set of real numbers in the language of set theory such that $\sf ZF$ proves that this set is both uncountable and can be well-ordered. Namely, it is consistent with the failure of the axiom of choice that only countable sets of real numbers can be well-ordered.)